The Vertical Space

#67 Niels Kalshoven, Port of Rotterdam: Drone Port Operations

• Luka T • Episode 67

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Welcome back to The Vertical Space and our discussion with Niels Kalshoven, Head of Drone Innovation Program at Port of Rotterdam and Co-founder Drone Port Rotterdam. This is one of the few discussions where we're speaking with someone without an aviation, OEM, or advanced air mobility background, but with experience where drones will be used - in this case at a maritime port, the Port of Rotterdam.

Building upon previous discussions with Andrew Hately, Niels delves into current and future drone applications in the Port of Rotterdam, highlighting U-Space implementation, scale of operations, and the role of ports in providing drone services. This is an interesting business model and it'll be interesting to see what type of service eventually scales at port operations. Will the ports allow their customers to operate drones independently with some type of centralized command and control, or will ports provide some type of centralized service? 

It's great to hear how trailblazers are establishing drone operations, how they justify their efforts and spend, and how they see the real value in return from the operations of the future.

Niels:

We have a customer who's now bringing 130 packages daily to ships and is doing it with very small speed boats. And why not using drones for this kind of operations? It can be cheaper with drones, more sustainable. So it's now about delivery inside the port and outside, for example to the anchor area where ships are waiting for entering the port. When a ship is sailing to the port, for example, an oil tanker, before they transfer the oil to a terminal you have to take some samples to check the quality. Nowadays the ship will enter the port, will go to the terminal, people will go on the ship, will take the samples, will drive with the car to the laboratory, do the checks, and they know if it's okay or not to start a procedure for transferring. We're now looking into why don't we fly with a drone to the ship who's already sailing to the port, not yet inside of the port, but sailing to the port, take the sample, fly to the laboratory, and do the check. When the ship is sailing into the terminal, we know the outcome and we can directly start with transferring the oil into the terminal.

Jim:

Hey, welcome back to The Vertical Space and our discussion with Niels Kalshoven, Head of Drone Innovation Program at Port of Rotterdam and Co-founder Drone Port Rotterdam. So, this is one of the few discussions where we're speaking with someone without an aviation, OEM, or advanced air mobility background, but has deep experience where the drones will be used in this case at maritime port, the Port of Rotterdam. We heard about the Port of Rotterdam and its compelling use cases with our discussion and podcast with Andrew Hately, which you should check out. It's become a really popular podcast on The Vertical Space. So after we heard about the port of Rotterdam from Andrew, we were curious to know what they are specifically doing today and intend to do with drones and other advanced air mobility, as well as hear how their current and anticipated operations apply potentially to other ports in Europe and around the world. So we went right to the source to today's guest Niels Kalshoven. Listen to a Niel's describes the use case at the port of Rotterdam, the implementation and value of U-space, the policies and procedures put in place to ensure a safe operation and the volume of operations today, and what's anticipated in the future. This is a really interesting business model; it'll be interesting to see what type of service eventually scales at port operations. Will the ports allow their customers to operate drones independently with some type of centralized command and control, or will ports provide some type of centralized service? Whereby the port customer's contract for drone services with that centralized organization? We generally see both models with airports today where some airports allow their customers let's say airlines to operate independently, or in some cases, especially outside the United States, there are more centralized provision of services like centralized gate or ramp management. We hope you enjoy this talk with Niels. It's great to hear how trailblazers are establishing drone operations, how they justify their efforts and spend and how they see the real value in return from the operations of the future. Niels thanks for joining us and to our listeners we hope you enjoy our talk with Neils Kalshoven as you innovate and The Vertical Space. Niels Kalshoven is the Head of Drone Innovation Program at the Port of Rotterdam and Co-founder DronePort Rotterdam. The use of drones is in line with the strategic ambition of the Port of Rotterdam Authority to be an even safer, more sustainable and more efficient port. Within the port Niels is responsible to develop the port area into an area where providers of drone services can experiment in a relevant environment. In the hybrid port of the future drones be used in addition to vessels, trains, and trucks for the transport of freight and passengers. Niels welcome to The Vertical Space. Great having you on.

Niels:

Thank you very much for the invitation. Looking forward to this discussion.

Jim:

Is there anything that very few in the industry agree with you on?

Niels:

Yes. So if I look to the, urban air mobility, and people, agree with me is that I think that if you look at the technique, it's quite far. But if you look at the regulations, there's still some work to do before we get really into the operational flying with the drones in the air, in ports or cities or wherever you think about.

Jim:

So, Niels, you're saying is that the operationalizing of the drones is potentially further out than what most people think?

Niels:

Yes, I think so. Especially if you look, to our port, the port of Rotterdam, it's quite busy at this moment. Already now, I think two and a half year, we're looking into this kind of new industry. And what you see nowadays that the amount of operations are still, increasing. So it's quite busy in our port area.

Jim:

All right, then I'm going to challenge your comment just a bit here. So what you're saying is, that although drone operations may have a while to scale the way people are generally expecting, at your port, the drone operations are pretty much at volume. They're operating relatively well, which is, a pretty darn good drone use case.

Niels:

Yes. Yes, it is. So especially if you look at the regulation nowadays, it's all VLOS or eVLOS. So you have to see the drone flying. But still, I think we now have 50 to 60 commercial drone operators who are flying for our customers in the port. If you look one and a half years ago, it was only 15. So it's quite increasing in those, is it one and a half years, so to say?

Jim:

Niels, give us a little bit of a background. So you're actually a port guy, right? You're not necessarily a drone person. So this is a little bit different for us. Okay. Tell us a little bit about, Port operations and how the operation of a port sets up the potential need for drone operations.

Niels:

Yes, so if you look at the port of Rotterdam, it's a quite big port. It's the biggest in Europe, not the biggest in the world anymore. But still we have 42 kilometers long is the port and we have 3, 000 customers which are located there. If you look at the port operations, formerly we are a landlord, so we lease our land to our customers. This is one of our income and the other one is port use. So when a ship is entering the port, they pay an amount of money, for using all the, services from the port. So what you see nowadays that there's a lot of logistic going on the, in the ports. A lot of goods are transported inside of the port, but also outside to the inland or to the short sea, to other ports in the neighborhood like Antwerp or Hamburg, for example. And what you see is with the drone industry, it's quite new for us as well. It's already there, but there are many questions. How can you use these drone operations in these kind of port environments? So that is what we're now looking into in several use cases. How we can involve or implement this in the current situations, so to say.

Luka:

Before going into some specific use cases, do you mind telling the story of how you got started with drones?

Niels:

Yes, so it started two, I think two to three years ago, when we saw that there was a new development about drones and it was first, it was the very small ones and we started to, within our innovation department, and, yeah. Let's start with the intro of the investigation of that. So we spoke also to our board and they said, yeah, drones, drones is something our neighbor is playing in the garden. And that was our vision at that moment. But we thought that it was, the development goes very fast. We say, okay, if you, look into the future and see the increase in the number of operations in the port. We as a port authority should think something about that, have an opinion about that. Do we like that? Do we disagree with that? Do we want to have a specific role in the ports as a port authority in this industry? So that was the beginning when we started with this, research, which is still going on, but that was the beginning when we started to look into these operations.

Luka:

So this was an internally driven effort. It wasn't the fact that drone companies came to you and tried to pitch the ideas, but it was more of a internally grown innovation project. Is that correct? Yes.

Niels:

But indeed also, drone operators asked to our authority for what is the regulations here? Can I fly here in a port area? At that moment, we didn't have any answers. So that was also a trigger to start into those investigations about the industry. So when you

Luka:

when you started this, you know, a couple of years ago, what was the, primary, areas of concern or things that was top of your mind? Was it related to regulations? Was it related to the fact that perhaps the characteristics of existing drones were not adequate enough, or perhaps they were, was it about, the decision of whether we, hire somebody to do this or do we in house this capability? What were some of the main things that you were juggling as you were trying to decide whether this makes sense?

Niels:

We ensure that all the drones were flying above the ports, that it will be done in a safe way. So do we have to regulate it or, do we need some extra regulations, inside of the port because it's all critical infrastructure. But it's also about security. Do you want those drones in your area? Sometimes you want them because customers are using it for inspections purposes. But it can also be that we have non cooperative drones in the port with other purposes we don't like. So those were the first topics that we say, okay, about safety and security, that's very important. We want it to be the safest part in the world. So with these new developments, you need an answer on your questions. And we didn't have the knowledge at that time. So what we said, let's start, gathering all the information, getting the knowledge, to know where we get talking about that you have information to where you can base your decision on. So that was very important in the beginning.

Luka:

And so did you see drones as a way to expand the offering to your customers as another revenue source for the port, or was it about enabling the customers to bring their own drones and then operate them as they see fit?

Niels:

For the Port of Rotterdam, it's really enabling. We do not, build up our own services for our customers. So we are more enabling the environment to say, okay, the drone operators can fly in the ports for our customers. So we really want to facilitate that.

Luka:

I see. Okay. So you don't, directly contract with drone operators and have them fly on behalf of the port, but you are providing an environment infrastructure, whether this is U- space or otherwise that we'll get into later that lets those, 3000 plus customers hire those drone operators and service providers and help them in whatever they need or they want done.

Niels:

Yes, exactly. Of course, we also look into the drone operations for our own organizations. But if you look at our customers, it's an open market. They are free to choose any operator they want. Of course, if you look at the port area, it's a specific category, so you need extra regulations to fly over there. But indeed it's open, so you can choose every company you want, national or international, that's up to the customers.

Jim:

What's the need for the drones. What's the, and what's the use case for the drones? What are they doing today that was done by some other means three plus years ago.

Niels:

So what you see nowadays, it's, already said it's all EVLOS BVLOS is not, yet there. The regulations aren't in the Netherlands for enough fly BVLOS. That will, I think, take a couple of years. What you see nowadays is that a lot of inspection is done by drones. Inspection of infrastructure, chemical industries, plants, cranes, all different kinds of things.

Jim:

So it's inspection and surveillance at the port. Where previously it was done by what means.

Niels:

It was done by people. For example, if you look at the infrastructure, the cranes, the inspection of cranes, and look at the current status of the maintenance, it was done by people. And it took them maybe a week to build the structure, to get it to the cranes, do the inspections, get all the pictures, a video maybe, and then do also the analysis. And what you see nowadays that they use the drones, it is flying, for example, one time or several times around the building or the crane, using the camera, using the algorithms, AI solutions to also predict the maintenance. for example, they will do it first for a baseline and every month, for example, and they will do an update and they can, after several times, they can predict the maintenance. That's very interesting. So it's cheaper because it's less labor, but also you're more efficient in using, drones, for example.

Luka:

And this is the infrastructure that the port owns, right? So in this case, you're using the drones to inspect your own assets.

Niels:

Also, but it's also from our customers, for example, the container terminals, there are independent companies. What you see is that they're responsible for their own cranes and inspections, responsible for their own operations. And they do also, use drones for the inspections purposes. And if you look at ports, we also have, for example, bridges, or other infrastructures, trains, railways. There we also use drones for inspections. So it's both for our customers are using it, but also the port authority is using it.

Luka:

So what is the primary, benefit or value that either the port or the customers see? In this case, let's take using drones for inspection and surveillance. Is the value realized in much, less time spent on doing these things, or is the value in having more frequent inspections and therefore predictive, interventions and maintenance, and therefore you save money over a longer period of time. Or is it something else? When you were going through the business case for these drones. Where did you see the value? How quickly and how strongly does that ROI resonate?

Niels:

I think it's always in combination. So indeed, you're more efficient in, doing, it quicker. So that's, related to the price cheaper. But also if you look to the safety, when you have to build a structure to inspect a crane with, and people have to get up to the structure,\ it's, I think, also safer to use a drone instead of. So it's a combination of, time management, efficiency, in the duration and also safety. And that's makes it cheaper to use drones in these, topics.

Luka:

What are the trade offs? You mentioned things that you gain by using drones. What are the things that you sacrifice a little bit? Is it perhaps the, human touch, if we can call it that, of a knowledgeable worker that can, identify things better than perhaps machines at this point, or is it something else? What I'd like to, bring up in this conversation is what it was like convincing management to roll this out. What were the, concerns raised? What was that back and forth discussion? Obviously you mentioned security and safety, and then on the benefit side, saving time, being more efficient, saving, lives potentially, but, can we get a little bit deeper into how that calculus looked like for the port.

Niels:

A very good question. We don't always have the figures yet, but if you look at it from the customer point of view, it's for them always about, do it in a cheaper way or in a safer way. If you look at as a port authority, for us, it's very important that when people are flying in the ports, it will be done on the safe way. So it's another point of view, so to say, if you look to our customers or the port authority. At the end, I think one of the most important things is indeed safety. That it's for all people. It has to be done on a safe way and a secure way.

Luka:

What changes to existing processes were required when you introduced drones into the workflow?

Niels:

Yeah, so we looked indeed to the processes and the procedures. We're now looking into, we started the proof of concept for a U- space airspace. When they start to fly, they will fill in a flight request. So for now we know who's flying in the air. And that's quite a new procedure. If you look for a couple of years ago, there was none of them. So at least we know that. Those are quite new for us as well. So we formally, we're specialized in traffic management on the water. Now we're also looking to the air. So all those, procedures and processes, which are important for that, those are quite new for a port authority, maybe not so for an airport, but for a port authority, it's quite new. So that was quite a challenge for us also because, sometimes you fly above and the container, terminal, okay. Then a drone falls down on a container. That's not so exciting. Of course, there can be some damage on your drone, but not on the container. If you compare it to a chemical industry, that can be very, dangerous if you look to the dangerous goods. We're still looking in of all those kinds of procedures, what kind of, risk, mitigations must be taken into account for a container terminal or in chemical industry or, flying above, water, for example, ships. Those are quite new for us and we're still looking at several of those procedures.

Luka:

What about procedures on the enterprise side of, let's say, teams that inspect assets, whether those are cranes or railroads, chemical plants, or any other infrastructure in the port that the port owns. How did their workflow change from, previous iteration or version of manually collecting the data, maybe taking some pictures and then uploading those pictures into some ERP like system that then tracks over time, the state of this infrastructure. How did that change with the drones and were there any required updates to those systems in order to accommodate drones in this workflow.

Niels:

Yes, so I don't have the knowledge of the really in depth and the detail procedures from what of our customers, what I can say is that what you see is that they're now collecting a lot of data, so that is something different in the way of working. So when they're using a lot of AI algorithms to process all this data. And get also good results of all their images and the cameras they, or the images they get into the system.

Luka:

So you talked about inspection and surveillance. What other use cases are prominent today?

Niels:

So what we're now looking into is also several use cases. One is, for example, delivery. Delivery of packages inside of the port, but also outside. For example, we have a customer, who's now bringing 130 packages daily to ships and is doing it with boats, very small speed boats. And, yeah, why do you, why not using drones for that, this kind of operations? It's, it can be cheaper with drones. It can more sustainable. That's also very important topic. so it's now about delivery inside the port and outside, for example, to the anchor area where, ships are waiting, for entering the port. That's very interesting for us, but also, for example, when a ship is, sailing to the port, for example, an oil tanker. Before they transfer the oil to a terminal, you have to take some samples to check the quality. And those samples first has to go to the laboratory to do the checks. So nowadays the ship will enter the port, and will go to the terminal. Then and, people will go on the board, on the ship, will take the samples will drive with the car to the laboratory, do the checks, and they know if it's okay or not to start a procedure for transferring the oil. We're now looking into why don't we fly with a drone to the ship who's already sailing to the port, not yet inside of the port, but sailing to the port, take the sample, fly to the laboratory, and do the check. When the ship is sailing, into the terminal, we know the outcome and we can directly start with transferring the oil into the terminal. It's like more, if you look in a port, it's about the port optimization. How can you help that and make it more efficient and faster, and that the ship can transfer the oil and after that go directly to the next port. So that's very interesting for us as well. another use case is looking to eVTOLs. For example, when a crew is, has to be changed. For now, all tech, they will go off the ship and drive the taxis to the airport. Why don't we use air taxis for that? Because we don't have any public transportation over there. Another topic can be that our fire department in the port is fairly sophisticated and is already using drones, when the ship is on fire. They've, if the ship is on sea, they will fly with helicopters to the ships and their equipment is, they have a lot of equipment. It's too big to put it as well on the helicopter. So you need another helicopter. Why don't you use a very big cargo drone to fly the equipment to the ship and the fire department to go fight the helicopter? So those are the next, use cases we are looking into and yeah, can make a difference for a port, not only for the port authority, but for our customers, as well.

Jim:

90 percent of the drone operations are for infrastructure inspections.

Niels:

Exactly.

Jim:

And they're operated, help me clarify this with Luka's good questions, and they're operated by one of the 3, 000 customers of the port. They're operating their own drones. You're not delivering a service.

Niels:

no, that's true. Yes.

Jim:

Okay. Very good. and if I could, and you spelled out many use cases for, let's say, AAM. So drones, you talked about larger cargo drones, you talked about, eVTOL, and again, for our audience, you're not a drone guy, you are a port guy. And you're saying, we used to, and historically, we never had to worry about the air, or to manage the air. Talk a little bit more about that. Tell us about how you were first introduced to it, what software you used to manage that process, who are the people who operate it, and how easy is it to operate, and what are some of the challenges there?

Niels:

Yes. To manage the, the very low airspace, we're now looking in, uSpace airspace. That's, it's quite new for us as well. There is already some regulations for the, from the European Union but it's not in, implemented yet in, in the Netherlands. We still wanted to investigate what is U- space airspace and can that be a solution if you look at the increase of, drone operations in the ports? Not only the small one, but also the bigger one. And also, if you look into the BVLOS operations, then I think it will be very crowded in the air. And that's the reason we start this proof of concept, for two years. And what we really wanted to investigate is the USPACE airspace and solutions. So manage the very lower airspace below the 150 meters. Is that something, interesting for our ports area? And besides that, the second one is, we're now responsible for the water, but is the port authority also the one we should do this? Or is there some other authority who should be responsible for this? Those were the research questions when we started this project, because we didn't know what it was exactly. Then we said, okay, just let's do it. Let's make it happen and let's see what it brings to us. And, it's what you see nowadays is be selected, and, provider. And, they call it an UTM system. And, UTM

Jim:

Who's

Niels:

Who

Jim:

is the provider, Niels?

Niels:

The provider in this case is Airwayz. so they are the developer of the system and we are the operators of the system. So they are, they've developed the whole system and, from, and they have a background in the manned aviations and what you see nowadays, they focus on the unmanned aviations. And within that system, there are several services we, you can deliver, eh, for example, the traffic management, you get all the information, from all the drone operators. You can do the traffic management and you can say also, someone is already flying over here, please wait for several minutes, or do take another route. This is an alternative we can give you. So that's all in this system, and that's called the UTM, the Unmanned Aircraft System for Traffic Management.

Jim:

how do people, you know, file their plan and how do they get approved? And, what's this tactical and strategic deconfliction? Explain that process because our audience will love to hear the practical use case here that Andrew Hately talked a little bit about as well in his podcast.

Niels:

Yes. we have several, if you look at the solution of use, use USP, you have to integrate all the drone operators into the system. So the drone operator has his own command and control system for the fleet management, where they can control their drones. And we have the traffic management system. Our UTM. So what you want is that the drone operators, when they start, do the preparations for the flight, so the pre flight, they will, fill in a flight plan and ask for a specific route, for example, from A to B. And, we will look in the area if somebody is already flying there and so not, we approve the, the request and otherwise we will withdraw it. And when they get, approval, they can take off and flight from A to B because we have in direct integrations, we get also in the, in-flight or the telemetry. So anytime we know where the drone is flying, that's is also very, easy. If you looked, eh, into the UTM system, it's like an aerial picture. So what you see is what we have. All the drones will, applied with the fly plan. In the system we also have manned aviation we also have the AIS data. So those are the ships were sailing in the ports. And we're now we have also the non cooperative drones information. So there's several information

Jim:

This is all integrated into the software, Niels. Even the AIS data from these ships.

Niels:

Exactly. That is, we're now looking into the last part is the non cooperative drones. But when we have that, we have a very nice aerial picture, and then you can say we have all the information in the lower airspace and can start with the really de conflicting of the drone in the drones. And that's very interesting. Maybe not for now, because it's all VLOS and eVLOS, but in this case it will learn a lot. We get a lot of information and we learn by day. how we, get into the de conflicting for the BVLOS flights. And also what you can do is, because you get all, a lot of statistics, data, you can also look to, okay, how we can mitigate the specific ground risk or air risk. So make it easier for our drone operators to fly it in our port. And that's very interesting as well.

Luka:

Speaking of air risk and ground risk, can you go into a little bit more detail what level of air risk class and ground risk you are operating in and what is the resulting SAIL level?

Niels:

So if you look at the prototype we're now running, it's in G class. So we're close by the airport, Rotterdam The Hague airport. That's a controlled area. So to say the CTR, but we are looking outside of that. So where the area where you are doing the proof of concept is the G class. Because of the operations we have now, we don't have any SAIL 4 yet. It's all about SAIL 2, SAIL 3 some of them. and that's more or less, nowadays, but yeah, because it's still VLOS and EVLOS. But we're now looking into several operations, for example, the BVLOS, and we're now looking at looking in how we can get the drones into SAIL 4, for this and what do we need? What kind of data do we need for our regulators to convince them that it's secure and safe to fly, with these drones, and say, okay, with this information, we know at least it's safe to fly BVLOS in our area.

Luka:

I see. maybe this is getting too much into the weeds, but I'm curious the ground risk, determination. Are ports considered a controlled ground area for purposes of classifying risk?

Niels:

I don't have all the knowledge of that, I have to say, but I know that if you look at specific, ground risk, when a lot of people are walking there, Let's put it that way, the drone operator at the end is responsible to look into the ground risk and, has authorization from our authority to fly above certain area

Luka:

Okay. And the reason I'm asking is because, you know, just by looking at how a safety case can be put forward in front of the regulators and the fact that it is a controlled ground, area where only the people who are involved are present and that you can, manage that ground risk, and also from a, air risk class sounds like, initially you're flying very close to infrastructure, you're, in an uncontrolled airspace, it seems like it would be already very fertile ground to be able to fly BVLOS, and I'm surprised why it hasn't happened yet in an environment like that, where you compare to, the drone delivery space, for instance, where BVLOS flights are happening over suburban areas.

Niels:

That's true. And that's, I think that's for, if you look to the port or to the Netherlands, that's one of our biggest, challenges, to convince our regulators that we can fly in a very safe way and that it can also be BVLOS. What we also try nowadays is because of the infrastructure we have and all the data and we want to try to, for example, the fire department to get the first one will fly BVLOS above water. And they are not a commercial one, so it's easier for them to do this kind of operations, and starts building up again all the data and convince our authority and regulators that it's very safe to do it in this way and that we have data that we convince them that, that you can fly BVLOS above water with these kind of data and infrastructure we supply nowadays.

Luka:

You mentioned earlier that you think it'll take another couple of years until the National Aviation Authority is convinced and that before BVLOS flights can happen. And again, that strikes me as way too long and so what is it that, that the aviation authority in Netherlands is having an issue with, and are they trying to impose things that are above and beyond what's established and mandated by EASA.

Niels:

If you compare it, for example, with autonomous cars, it's also the same in The Netherlands. The technique is there, the car is there, but the regulation isn't yet there. So they're mostly always behind. So that's the same what we see now in the drone industry as well. But anyway, what we see now is that the regulators See what we're now doing in not only in the Port of Rotterdam, but also in other cities or ports and they already get the trust that it's, we can do it in a very safe way. What you see nowadays that they are really keen to help us. And we now also will start a BVLOS corridor. which will start from the port of Rotterdam to a test center which is close by, 30 kilometers away. And, that's a really first start for us, to fly, several BVLOS operations, above, water. But I agree with you, it can always be, can always be faster. and I'm convinced that we, looking at what we have nowadays in infrastructure, digital, we can already start with some operations.

Peter:

At some point, I'd love to cover the vision for how this operates at scale at the port and whether it's decentralized and you have 3, 000 different customers who are planning their flights and flying them as they see that they need to for their purposes and the IT system manages the safety of that. Or is it this highly centralized model and, why one versus the other? What is this going to look like at scale?

Niels:

And do you mean centralised like a UTM system, like USPACE airspace or, and decentralised?

Peter:

The people, the organizations and the authorities that are using uSpace or these traffic management systems at scale when this is no longer so novel, what is that operation going to look like? How many parties are going to be involved? Will it be decentralized or will everything be cleared and coordinated through, some sort of an authority at the port before anybody flies?

Niels:

That's a very good question, because what we see nowadays, officially, several USSP operators can provide their services. And that is one of the questions, for a port authority. Is that something, we want to, let it up to the market, or is that something as a port authority you should want to do that? And that's a very interesting question and we don't have the answer yet. But what you see nowadays is that, for example, if you look to a USSP and you want to get several information layers in that, that sometimes, speaking as a port authority, we have more information than other parties will have. And we're not always allowed to share those information because of the authority we are. So it's also a very interesting question is if we can provide a port authority the services and other commercial parties can also, will be there a difference in services quality and also in, in costs? Is there a price differences in the future as well? And also to the price discussion, it's very interesting and also a very big question mark, because for now we know about what the, we invest in all the infrastructure, but what the model will be, the business model of using USpace Airspace. So will you charge all the drone operators or not? We don't have an answer yet. that's a very big question mark. And we know that we will have to charge them because if you use the infrastructure and etc, maybe it can, for us, it can be breakeven or do you want to make some money on that as a commercial party? So those are very interesting topics as well. We don't have the answer yet.

Luka:

Yeah, I was just going to ask you about how you see the business model. And even between the UTM provider and the port right now, is that now thought of in terms of a per flight basis, or is there some, fixed fee? How do you see that evolving?

Niels:

It's a very difficult question. I can imagine we already started doing some research, but it's also depending if you only fly in the port, what is happening if you cross the USpace airspace. So those are several scenarios you can write down and say, okay, what then, what should I charge the drone operator? And I have to be honest, I really don't know yet.

Luka:

When you talk to customers or operators, what kind of feedback are you receiving? What do you sense is their appetite for spending for this service?

Niels:

To be honest, we don't have those kind of discussions yet because it's nowadays all about the purpose. What is U-space airspace? What is the service we can provide? What of data we can deliver to their operations And, It's more about the technical integration and not so far for the commercial discussions yet.

Jim:

You know, at the end of the day, who's making money here potentially from this process? On one hand, it's people who are selling drones to the independent operators that are running them today, which is, relatively peanuts. If you are going to charge for something, Niels, you're charging for access to the airspace, I'm assuming, is what you're charging for. And in the future, you may be charging for a service. Whereas Peter's question was getting to, you may provide a centralized service rather than having thousands of people running their individual drones.

Niels:

If you look at it as a port authority and looking at the port area, I think, but that's my personal opinion, I think I would prefer a centralized service. So everyone knows how much it will cost to fly in the port or cross the port and then it's very because we have so many people who want to fly over there and you have to organize or orchestrate in a way that you are still attractive and that you're not charging too much to your customers, that you're not attractive anymore as a port in a broader perspective. So it's, we want to have it at least in a safe way. It's the same if we look at the traffic information on water. You want that it will be done in a safe way and it, you need infrastructure for that and our customers understand they have to pay for it. Yeah. question is indeed, do you have to make a lot of money for that? And that's not always the case for us. As a port authority, I think it's more interested that we have more customers here, who bring their businesses here. And that's more valuable for us than making money out of these kinds of services. So

Jim:

Yeah. you making sure that there's a free flow of, of, going back to your Dutch roots, making sure that the, there's a free flow of transportation is what's most important. And if the drone operations can help to facilitate that all the better. Yeah. That makes sense.

Niels:

in this way, we're more like a facilitator and enabler in this

Jim:

Yes, And probably true of most ports, right?

Niels:

Yeah, I think so. yes, that's true.

Jim:

How many people are actually involved from the Port Authority? How much of your time is spent on the drone operations? How many other people at the Port Authority are involved in the same?

Niels:

It's very, good question. I'm working full time on this project and I also have a colleague, Ingrid Römers who is doing the same and that's it. It's not so much yet. what in the port? That's a lot of

Jim:

That's a lot of value being offered by just two people

Niels:

people. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's true. And also, That can also be in risk, indeed. But, what we're now looking into is how we can build up the whole ecosystem. And so involve more parties in, developments so that then it's not only the port anymore.

Luka:

You mentioned earlier that one of your customers is currently doing something like 130 deliveries per day from the shore to their ships and they're using fast boats today. What kind of payload is that? Can you give us a sense of what kind of cargo is being moved?

Niels:

Yes, the payload is not, higher than, if I'm correct, 20 kilos. They're not allowed to, have heavier cargo. That's the regulations. And if you look at the cargo, it's very interesting. Sometimes it's very simple, like SIM cards, cash, money, documents, medicines, all those kind of stuff.

Luka:

Is there some kind of an 80 20 rule where 80 percent of the payload is, call it less than maybe, a kilo, kilo and a half? Is there a rule of thumb like that? I'm probing because I'm trying to triangulate what the ideal characteristics are in terms of range, payload, for a drone to be useful

Niels:

Yeah, so very good question, but I think it is also depending on what is, what can we do nowadays with the payloads? So what in the transportation nowadays is it's under the five kilogram or something like that. Of course, we're looking to the next step is the heavier cargo drones. And when it's allowed also to fly with those kind of drones, up to 25, payload kilogram, for example, then you will also see the bigger cargo will also be, delivered. So it's a little bit depending of what is possible, and, nowadays and what is allowed nowadays. and, yeah. And if you see that it's allowed to also transport bigger cargo, then I think that will also be, that will also increase.

Luka:

When you talk to your customers or for purposes of your own drone operations as well, what are some of the frustrations that you have with current drones? Let's put regulations aside what do you see as gaps? This might be performance, this might be user interface. It might be the data flowing from the drone to, wherever in the enterprise it needs to go. Tell us more about

Niels:

that. Yeah. I think if you look at the products nowadays, I think it's about the distance you can fly, the time the drone can be in the air. And that, of course, is dependent of the batteries. For now, it's all about batteries nowadays. You already see that they also look to the hydrogen, of course, or in combination, hybrid. But I think nowadays it's the combination of, the duration you can fly in the air.

Luka:

Any interesting insights or feedback from when you're talking to customers how they think about whether to outsource drone services to an operator or whether given the volumes, it makes sense for them to develop that capability in house?

Niels:

A very good question, because it's also depending on what their core business is. If you look to the example where we talked about the customers who is doing the deliveries nowadays, is for the 130 packages a day, is looking into, okay, let's start with outsource it. And maybe in the future he will insource it because it's then it's part of his core business. And that's really interesting because if you look to, for example, container terminals, we want to have some inspection of their cranes. Those will always say I will use a drone, a commercial drone operator who will do the inspection because, otherwise I don't fly too often. It will cost me too many time, too many, investments to get all, and also in, in labor with all the training, et cetera. It costs too much to do it by yourself. And then they outsource it. So it's really depending of the, the industry where you're in and the purposes you want drones for, for inspection or delivery or whatever. Because I can also imagine if you have cargo delivery daily, for example, the samples we already talked about, yeah, then it can be very interesting to do it by yourself. So depending on what kind of business you are in.

Luka:

When you extrapolate into the future, how do you see this dynamic evolving, at least for your port?

Niels:

I think a lot of inspections still will be done by, commercial drone operators, also because they are specialized, they have the equipment, they have the AI tools, the algorithms can do the analysis. If you look to the cargo delivery, I think it will be done by themselves, they will insource it. in the future the, that will be the case.

Jim:

Niels, talk a little bit about, your port, the size of your port versus others in Europe, and where you see, drone operations scaling at what kinds of ports? I would assume with the use cases you're describing, there'd be an awful lot of ports that are going to have a lot of drone operations in the future. Or do you see it only in, one or two in Europe, in New York, L. A., who knows, in the United States, Hong Kong?

Niels:

I think if you look at Europe, I see a lot of ports starting, investigating how they can use drones in the port. Some ports are farther, some will just start. If you look to, for example, the biggest one, Hamburg, Antwerp, Rotterdam, looking these kind of operations, they also look into U- space, airspace, or, how, manage the, the, the lower airspace, offering special services as an authority. We're not the only one and every port has its own approach. what, which is good because what you see nowadays, we speak to Antwerp, we speak to Hamburg, and that's very interesting because we say, okay, we do it on our own way. We implement U- space airspace in an operational area. Antwerp has a different approach and we can learn both from both sides. That's very interesting. So what we do nowadays, what we wanted to do is that we are building up our own ecosystem in the Port of Rotterdam. They are doing it as well in Antwerp, Hamburg as well. And we want to connect all those ecosystems and exchange the data, exchange knowledge, and how can we help each other in that. So that is what you see in Europe. Outside of Europe, we also see the same is happening. For example, Singapore is also looking into this kind of operations. We have a good relationship as well with them. And, also looking into how can we help each other? How can we exchange data and knowledge? But the difference on also of the location of the port, the country it is in, what kind of port, industry is there, how far they are with their developments.

Peter:

Of those ports, whether in Europe or Singapore, as you mentioned, which are the most forward leaning, which are, being the most innovative and doing the most interesting things

Niels:

That's a very good question. yeah, Rotterdam is one of, in, in the top five, but, uh, if you look at the approach we have looking into the uSpace airspace, how we develop services for our customers, how we build up the ecosystem, so how we help our customers, and look into their business models to implement these kind of operations. So that's something we don't see a lot in other ports. That's really our frontrunner over there. But if you look at other ports, for example, Antwerp, they already implemented the whole, uSpace, airspace, and also the BVLOS operations. They have five or six drones in the box solutions and can start the operations at any time they want. That's not so far we are yet. So on the other point of view, they're also very far, but sometimes it's very difficult to compare it. So what you can say is that there is sometimes in a port, there is a lot of development going on. And sometimes they just started. They're not so far, so it's not about who is the best, I think, it's how far they are in the implementation and building up the ecosystem.

Peter:

Are there roadblocks that these early innovators have discovered that the rest of the community is thinking about how to work around, or are the ports that are being the most forward leaning, learning on their own and benefiting a lot from it.

Niels:

I think, there are some advantages of, and, what we already, for example, if you look to several systems for detecting drones, In Belgium, Antwerp, they have another system than in Hamburg, Singapore, Port of Rotterdam. And what we already started is, what is the advantage of system A, B and C? What are the pros? What are the cons? And how can we help each other? So we invite each other as well to look into our kitchen, so to say, and so they can see how we implemented that. So that, and that is very interesting as port, because we also have, they all have the same challenges in implementing this new kind of industry. So that really helps us.

Luka:

How many, ports are there in Europe and the US that you think would benefit from drone operations. I'm trying to size up this market opportunity,

Niels:

How many in Europe, um,

Jim:

Why would a small port not even want this? Why does it have to be the monster? I assume they're the greatest. But if somebody provided a service, let's say a company standardized what you did and, listened to what your lessons learned and your best practices and the other big ports in Europe and created a service out of this. I would assume there's probably 10 to 20 that would be the best candidates. But why would small ports not even want this service, Niels? And while you're answering Luka's question, I didn't mean to step on your question, Luka.

Niels:

To answer the first question, it's very difficult to say the amount of ports. I don't have the numbers for that, but indeed,

Luka:

a ballpark, is it, 10, 20, 30, 50,

Niels:

I think, I think all parts at the end, ports, all ports at the end, so big ports, small ports, it doesn't matter. I think the only thing is what you see nowadays in the bigger ports. they also have the capability to invest in these kinds of new solutions. So they are more the front runner. And they can help also the smaller ports in these kind of things. And also the bigger ports are more, they have more complex operations. And if it works over in these kind of ports, you can copy and paste it also in the smaller ports. So that's the very interesting thing. So at the end, I think any ports can copy paste a part of our solutions, not the port of Rotterdam solutions, but the solutions from the, from any port where you're looking into. So I think the opportunity and it's quite big. And, I think there is a lot to do with imports and also looking into how we can implement these kinds of solutions, because it also helps us with the logistics and make it more efficient, more sustainable. we all have the same challenges over there. You always want to be more efficient and sustainable in the future and still want to make money. So why don't you help each other on that?

Luka:

You mentioned different ways to, go about detecting non cooperative aircraft that are being implemented across various ports. Can you briefly talk about what you're thinking about using, what Antwerp and maybe some other ports are using and what kind of, feedback do you share among the ports in terms of what has potential, a

Niels:

Look at detecting the non cooperative drones, there isn't one solution yet. And I don't think there will be in the future. So it will be several, systems you need to detect the drones. For example, we're now starting a project to use radar systems, but they de conflict a lot with, steel. And, that's one of the things we have a lot in the port, looking at cranes,

Luka:

lot of interference. Yep.

Niels:

Indeed. You cannot use only radar systems, so you also have to look at, for example, in radio frequency RF solutions, maybe cameras or other solutions. So I think it will be a combination in the future. So what you see is that Antwerp is now using RF solutions. That's very interesting. So we could have a lot of exchange of knowledge. And we're now also starting up one of our own projects to look into that. And it's the same with radar systems. We now are the first one in Europe was doing this. And, and we can share our knowledge as well.

Luka:

What kind of effective ranges are you observing from passive RF detection as well as radar

Niels:

it's also depending on the amount of radar system you're having, but also the system range. But I think if you say between the 10 to 20 kilometer range, it's more or less, depending on the system, and also for RF. So you

Luka:

10 10 kilometers with a radar system to detect a small drone?

Niels:

exactly, but one, one

Luka:

What kind of radar systems are you using? that seems very long range to me. I was expecting something, you know, in the order of one kilometer.

Niels:

I wanted to say is as well that you need several of the systems placed in the area so you can track them above the port area. So you're not done with one radar system, you need several in the port or, several RF systems to coverage the whole area. So at the end, I think if you look at radars, our pilot is that we now have two of them. We only cover the entrance of the port

Luka:

And how big is the entrance of the port?

Niels:

Five to 10 kilometers range, something like that.

Luka:

I see. How concerned are you and what are you doing about the threat of small drones that, you know, bad guys can potentially use to do bad things. What is your strategy on counter UAS systems?

Niels:

It is indeed a big threat for us as well at the end, looking at the port is in critical infrastructure. So what we want to know is who's flying in the air. So that was also one of the reasons we started with the U- space airspace. That brings us also that we have to track the non cooperative drones as well. And, that's what we now do it nowadays. And what you see is that, sometimes it's because people don't know, they're not allowed to fly over there. And sometimes they have other purposes for example, if you look to our own container terminals, we have a lot of, drugs related things that's going on over there. And they also use drones nowadays to get packages from the one side of the fence to the other side of the fence. And then we also have the other side of that's more like the terrorist, thing. We know that we have to invest in these kinds of solutions. And that it's very important to know what is happening in the air. And as a Port Authority, we're only about the detecting. We cannot, do anything about, the next step, get them out of the air. That's something for the police in this case, in our case. So we now also talk to the National Police about, well, we have this kind of data and how can we help you to give the insights of what is happening in our port area. And so that's also very interesting. So there's one topic, which needs, I think, a lot of, attention in the coming years.

Jim:

Niels, thank you for this. this is a new topic for a lot of us because it's, we don't understand port, we understand the drone operations, we understand drone delivery, we understand drone for inspecting things, but to be able to understand the intersection of the drone capability and the ports is really interesting. I'm about to ask you 10 years from now, what are we going to be seeing? And to allow you to think about that, I'm assuming there's a bit of a business opportunity here, for some kind of a service delivery, capability that again takes the best practices of what you're doing in the other European ports and others and that just takes it from port to port and maybe you guys are part of that maybe you're part owner in that but it sounds like there's a real opportunity there.

Niels:

A lot of opportunities is going on. What we also now are doing that we are building up the ecosystem. That is not only done by the port. It's also done by the national authorities. For example, the municipality of Rotterdam, which is close by. We have Rotterdam The Hague Airport. It's close by. We have the province. That's region authority. We have the TU Delft. We several universities. And also research institutions. And what we see is that we have to integrate all those, parties together. And that's the reason we now also started a foundation that's called the DronePort Rotterdam. And from that foundation we really want to get all the knowledge together, work as a one ecosystem. And spread it out. Not only in the Netherlands, but also, international, working with other ports or cities. And that's a great opportunity for us. So we're now focusing a lot of how can we manage it inside of the port, but within a couple of years, I think it's very interesting also to bring our knowledge and experience outside of our port to other ports or cities, which are now facing these kind of challenges. That's, we're now looking in, we're now in, in the phase of, formalize it, the foundation. So that will be there, I think, in a couple of weeks or months. and from that point, we can start also, the cooperation with other, parties.

Jim:

if you were to do this all over again, you've been doing it for a couple of years What would you do different?

Niels:

What are the differences? What I would do different is that I, start earlier, I think, with how can we make, valuable business models for our customers? How can we facilitate that more? But the end, because it's, somebody has to pay for it. And that's always the question. What is the added value? And how can we capitalize that? And when I start over again, that will be a higher priority.

Jim:

And, five, ten years from now, the port of Rotterdam and let's say the larger ports around the world, how will they be dramatically different because of what you're doing?

Niels:

I think then it will be very normal to see drones, smaller, bigger eVTOLs flying in the not only flying, but it's also integrated in the urban and, region. it's part of the environment with the ferry ports, for example. And, also, looking into autonomous, electric, flights. So it's more like a mainstream within five to 10 years, if you ask me.

Jim:

There will be some who would argue that the port will be the first proving ground for the integration of a lot of these things. As Andrew Hatley said, it has a clear use case. So in many ways, you're leading the way, some could argue, Niels. And what advice would you give to our entrepreneurs, our innovators on the line? Where do you see the you've already presented some pretty obviously, which is very cool. But where do you see some opportunities for the innovators, whether it be in, product or whether it be in service?

Niels:

Good question. I would say I will focus on developing a total package offering or solution, so to say, so what you see nowadays is that customers are looking into, these kind of services and not knowing really where to start. And if you can offer some total package, and giving their, so you can add value for them. I will recommend that.

Jim:

A turnkey, service delivery solution for a port.

Niels:

Yes, exactly.

Jim:

And is there anything, very good, is there anything you'd like to leave with our audience that, are there any questions we haven't asked? Or is there anything you want to talk to our audience as you wrap it up?

Niels:

Yes, It's quite new, all those developments we're now facing. And what we always do is think big, but act small. And just begin, just start, make it happen. And then you will see it will start rolling and rolling. And then I think within 5 to 10 years, what I already said, it will be a mainstream. Just do it. I think that's the most important thing. And show the world, or your customers, or regulators, or whatever it is, what the beneficial part of this is. And you can only do it by showcasing it.

Jim:

That's great. Congratulations to you for doing what you're doing, to your port for taking a chance here, leaning in. You're the first one through the wire, so it's not the easiest. thank you for being on the show, Niels.

Niels:

Thank you very much for the opportunity. It was really great.